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More than thirty years on from Barcelona’s La Masia youth academy opening its doors for the first time, a Blaugrana side filled with its graduates will attempt to cement their home-grown dynasty at Wembley this Saturday, by adding another Champions League trophy to their already burgeoning collection of silverware.
Few could have predicted the enduring influence the academy would have on the club, but having previously housed the architects charged with designing Camp Nou, La Masia would go on to provide the ingrained philosophy from which future generations of the first team were developed.
When Terry Venables was appointed Barcelona manager in 1984, the academy was still in its infancy and, while a level of involvement with La Masia was something the future England boss was keen to pursue, the requirement to deliver glory instantly was of greater importance.
The La Liga title was returned to Barca’s 100,000 capacity stadium for the first time in twelve years in Venables’ maiden season in charge, and although European Cup Final disappointment at the hands of Steaua Bucharest followed, ‘El Tel’ – as he was dubbed by the Spanish media during his three years at the helm – is still considered in high regard for introducing an attractive, colourful style of football still prevalent in the Barcelona class of 2011.
On Tuesday, I sat down with Venables at Stamford Bridge, the home of the club he featured for over 200 times, to discuss not only the impending Champions’ League Final, but also the future of Chelsea and everything in between.
JS: Hello, how are you doing?
TV: I’m very well thanks, how are you doing?
JS: I’m very well thank you. The first question I want to ask you is about ‘home advantage.’ Not necessarily that Manchester United are playing ‘at home,’ more the fact that Barcelona don’t travel that well and perhaps this could work in United’s favour. United also haven’t played well away this season, but cast your mind back to last year, I remember Barca losing 3-1 away at Inter following a 500-mile coach trip due to the ash cloud, which could potentially be a cause for distraction again this year. In terms of maybe a handicap to Barcelona, what kind of disadvantage do you think they have playing at Wembley rather than perhaps United having an advantage by playing in England?
TV: With the experience they have got I don’t think that there is much of a disadvantage and I think Man U themselves have a fantastic home record and maybe aren’t so good away which is similar to Barcelona, so those sorts of things you’re used to doing. You get people talking about travelling the other side of the world for teams you know, it is a long journey. Well tennis players and golfers they all have to do it, so if you want to be universally popular you have got to travel the world and all the difficulties that come with that. I don’t think anyone has got a problem in that area unfortunately for both of them.
JS: What do you remember about Pep Guardiola? How early on you might have noticed that he could be as great as he is now. I am sure that many didn’t think that he was going to achieve what he did in the time he did, but in terms of how early you might have noticed that managerial spark?
TV: Well he was about 15 at the time or 14. I recognised that he would be a really good player, he looked a good player and he was an intelligent type, but I then went after 3 years so I didn’t really see the maturing of him as it went. All I know about is his record and I know what he has done at Barcelona recently, and he’s done an incredible job. Without spending lots and lots of money.
JS: On that note, there are 4 or 5 members of England’s Euro ’96 squad [which Venables managed] that have since ventured in to management as well. Why do you think the likes of Gareth Southgate, Alan Shearer, Paul Gascoigne, David Platt, and perhaps Stuart Pearce thrown in there as well, haven’t had a similar impact in management?
TV: It comes down to the type of person you are. It isn’t how he [Guardiola] was at football it’s not anything like that because I mean Booby Moore never really did what he wanted to and Bobby Charlton. I suppose a lot of the very talented players, you expect it [being a successful manager], but there is no reason why they should be or they want to, you know, that’s the thing.
JS: How far do you reckon we are away from seeing an English manager lift the Champions League?
TV: An English manager lift the champions league?
JS: I mean there has only been one or two that have even managed in the recently formatted Champions League, so how far away are we from actually seeing an English manager perhaps getting to the final, let alone lift the trophy?
TV: Well its hard to tell really, they do get a good chance in England in the fact that we get four teams in it normally and that is very well, so there is no reason why they can’t.
But in saying that, where do we get them from? We have got Arsenal; not English, we have got Chelsea; not English, Man City are up there; not English. So there are no English managers in there anyway.
This thing about being a good manager is, you can’t judge it by being in the top four. There are haves and have nots. A lot of these managers that have done well like Mick McCarthy, Roberto Martinez and Ian Holloway, are at the bottom of the League, and I’ve got to say, and I’ve been saying it for several weeks now, that Martinez, McCarthy and Holloway have done a fantastic job of getting their teams where they are. It’s the leader, you’ve got to back the jockey sometimes. The biggest player is the manager or the coach, he is the one that is the leader, he is the one that you have got to follow, can he handle it?
They never looked like they couldn’t [handle pressure] on the television. When they came on they seemed very confident and I thought, and as I have said again and again, the fact that you’re looking for him to sort of worry a little bit. But that never came and they showed incredible leadership throughout the bottom [of the Premiership table]. There is nothing harder than that, that is where the problem is, that’s where the pressure is, it’s at the bottom.
JS: One more thing about managers. Obviously we are sat here at the home of Chelsea today and they have recently sacked Carlo Ancelotti, but I wanted to know why, bearing in mind the last five Chelsea managers have been sacked, more or less, for failing to win the Champions League, why this club haven’t won it yet? Almost all of these managers have got pedigree, not just in the Champions League but at international level as well. Why has it not happened yet for Chelsea, because it is not like they haven’t had the standard of manager to deliver European glory, and that is clearly what they sought to do?
TV: Well let’s try and be fair about it because everyone is going to be going on about this and I think Ancelotti is very unfortunate to have lost his job to say the least.
But you have also got to say he has done a great job, as you’re saying, he has won the double, he has come second in the Premier League, when the middle section [of the recently finished season] was poor, but he got them to come on again and there were injuries as well. It wasn’t his fault, so he has done a really good job.
But we have also got to say that the eight years that the chairman [Roman Abramovich] has been there, it has been the best eight years Chelsea has had in the whole of their history. And he is the biggest player in that. He is the one that without him we wouldn’t have had those eight years. I have got no doubt about that. So you have to say, well credit your dues, he is the head of the big business, and like all big businesses you have to make big decisions.
It doesn’t mean it is right [sacking Ancelotti] it doesn’t mean it is wrong, it means it is very very tough. And that is what happens, so long as he is not sneaky. I don’t know about things like that, but the only thing that counts is he has done the job and he wants to entrust someone else now. If he wants to entrust someone else he is taking a risk. If it sinks, you can say ‘well we tried and tested it, wanted him in the beginning, and he didn’t do it,’ and he feels confident with it in his hands. It’s his decision.
Ancelotti is going to be ok, he has done a great job, everyone feels sorry for him, and I do to. But he is going to go somewhere else, he understands. And like he says, maybe he would agree, sitting down in the cold of day, it is his [Abramovich’s] business. So I think that is the fair way of looking at it. And if someone says it is really outrageous and you say well, in the cold light of day, that’s how I would look at that.
JS: Well I completely agree that for a manager to come in and win the double in his first season in England and be sacked only one year later is quite ridiculous. But I’m just struggling to work out how it hasn’t happened yet [Chelsea winning the Champions’ League]. Do you think had Jose Mourinho stayed on another year or two they might have got there, seeing as he won it again less than two years following his Stamford Bridge departure?
TV: Well you can’t say that. You can’t say that because he didn’t stay, and one of the reasons he didn’t is because they [Abramovich and Mourinho] didn’t get on at that particular time. So whatever happened it is one of those things that happens in life.
JS: In terms of the actual game, eyes that aren’t on Lionel Messi will be on Ryan Giggs, for obvious reasons. Ignoring his recent personal difficulties, I wanted to get your view, considering he has won 12 Premier Leagues, 4 FA Cups and two Champions Leagues – a feat of Rodger Federer standards – whether or not he should now be considered amongst the likes of Pele, Maradona and Zidane? Giggs has done it in a team sport for 21 years at, arguably, the best team. Surely now he should be acknowledged not just as one of the best of his generation, but in that bracket alongside the all-time greats?
TV: Well I would say it is a team sport, but deep down it is an individual sport as well. I often use the analogy of a chain that is working well for that team; if one cog is not good enough it can break the whole chain, so you do rely on other people as well. But if each cog is strong, and the individual is strong and plays to his best, you will have a strong team. But if they don’t you could be let down by that.
What would have happened if Beckham stayed? But it had to be that group of players which is invaluable. That doesn’t come round very often. I mean they had a group and they thought it was going to be like that with [Mark] Robins, [Russell] Beardsmore and so on, but they didn’t quite get through as a group. It is unheard of what Ferguson has done with this particular group.
At the moment I think Man United have made the pot swollen. Most teams have got two sections of recruiting; through the ranks and buying for today. Well I think Man Untied have extended that and they did it through the ranks and then in the middle they bought players at 18 years-old, when they’re nearly ready, with more of a good chance of making it, rather than signing 12 or 13 year-olds. The two Brazilan boys [Rafael and Fabio da Silva], Anderson, Nani and [Javier] Hernandez you can put in that category. And the top one is to buy them for today like Barcelona did with David Villa. They have got one, but they have been taking this conveyor belt of players from the academy [La Masia] that know the game inside out, not just good players, but they know the game and what they are supposed to be doing when they get into the first team, plus the ones that you buy for today.
So I think he [Giggs] is different in that he has got through the ranks. The ones that are nearly there are more likely to make it than not because you have got them at 18. When you’re doing it at a young age there is incredible fall-out, but that is part of the plan.
A lot of young players from all over the world want to go to Man United because of their name and their history. Now and again they do say, ‘well I want to buy [Antonio] Valencia,’ for example. I mean just down the road anyone else could have bought him, he has had a wicked injury, he has come back, and you wouldn’t notice he has gone, he looks excellent. I think that that has gone quite unnoticed.
JS: But the fact that there are a number of players that started off their careers and have since ended their careers in the time that Giggs is still around doing it at the top?
TV: It is a good example, but I don’t think it means anything. What about George Best for example? If George Best had carried on playing, he might have been doing it, I mean that was his own decision, he wanted to retire at 27 which is a little different but then again that’s the way it was. Giggs has been absolutely magnificent and if you want to give a special achievement for a career I would agree that he has to be up there with them.
JS: Who would you pick in United’s midfield for Saturday? Ferguson does like to rotate the centre rather a lot, who would you choose?
TV: Well it’s quite interesting isn’t it? How are you going to play and how are you going to beat Barcelona? The first thing you think of is Messi. How do we stop Messi? Messi is going to find your weak spot. He is going to start out on the right and test the left back, and if he beats him, he is going to do it again. Sometimes he goes in behind the back four, looking for those pockets of spaces, and then if that’s not working he goes to the left. He keeps doing all of those things during a game.
So you have got that situation of how do you tag him down? Well, there is lots more to Barcelona than just Messi. Guardiola will want to get his team playing through the middle and United will try and block that off because the spaces are very small. There are only a certain number of players who can pass that ball through to him and Barcelona have most of them in their team already.
So that is what United will be up against. They have not got to worry too much because you know how Barcelona is going to play. They know what they’re about and what they are going to do.
JS: Yeah, I remember two years ago in the 2009 Champions’ League Final when a lot of people were saying Darren Fletcher was the most significant absentee [having been suspended after a red-card in the semi-final] because of his defensive industry. Unfortunately, he has been injured recently and has only just returned to the first team, so it doesn’t seem as though he will have the same impact he might have done two years ago. Pepe obviously did very well in this role for Real Madrid throughout the recent four Clasico games, and before he was sent-off in the second-half of game three, Barca had only scored one penalty against Madrid. After his dismissal, Messi was given the freedom to score twice, effectively ending the Champions’ League tie in the first leg. But it doesn’t appear that United have even one effective player of that ilk?
TV: Well what they have got is two players, with legs, that will be prepared to run and break up Barca’s combination play. One is Fletcher and one is Park Ji-Sung. The other thing they could do is put Park on Messi, and get him to mark him and break off him, because Messi won’t chase Park back, and he can score a goal.
Now I saw those recent games and the clue for me was Pepe, especially in the Copa del Rey Final. In that match, Madrid won by putting Pepe in the middle of the field, alongside Sami Khedira and Xabi Alonso, and the three of them stopped Barcelona from going into the back four. Also, when the gang broke on a counter attack, Pepe was in there for the crosses, and in fact he headed one against the post.
So I thought that was the clue. In the first leg of the Champions League Clasico, Madrid’s system fell apart after Pepe’s red card. It was 0-0 when he was on the field, and when he got sent off, Messi had more room to play and scored two.
So you’re the only one that’s got that one, no-one else has asked that.
JS: It’s just that I was thinking in terms of in ’09 after Fletcher got sent-off against Arsenal. It was obviously very strange at the time to be talking about Darren Fletcher as the missing link in a Manchester United v Barcelona Champions’ League Final, but perhaps Barca were too strong that night anyway, with or without Fletcher. But Pepe certainly showed it’s possible to quell the Catalans’ attack…
TV: There wasn’t anyone stronger [than Pepe] for those two-and-a-bit games. He was a huge reason why Madrid won it [Copa del Rey]. To be fair, no one cares about the cup, as in most countries, but I do accept that if it is between two major rivals like that, it is important, as you could see in the celebrations. So it was major. And then the next game, it was 0-0, very tight, and if he had stayed on the field it could have been a different matter.
JS: Well I guess my final question is, who would you pick? who is going to win?
TV: No I cannot do that one, I have got to keep something back!
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